RevolutionZ
RevolutionZ
Ep 339 Lucy Hicks on Gen Z and the General Strike Project
Episode 339 of RevolutionZ has as its Guest Lucy Hicks from the General Strike US project to share her insights on building a decentralized movement aimed at mobilizing millions Americans for a general strike to "transform our economic and political systems." We discuss the challenges and strategies involved in creating nationwide labor and social solidarity during increasingly mind numbingly disturbing political times.
General Strike US formed in 2022. It is currently focused on political education, building regional chapters (it has 37 so far), and growing a strong foundation. What have been its experiences to date? What lessons does it convey? Where is it headed?
In addition to conversing about this project, episode 339 addresses the experiences and current mindsets and inclinations of Generation Z's members including Lucy herself. Where are they at? How have the pandemic imposed school at home and isolation, restrictive and declining life options, and antagonistic social media involvements impacted their lives? What obstacles from loneliness and isolation to fear and alienation, among others, limited or advanced radical or reactionary inclinations and collective organizing?
How do Lucy and others approach the problem of moving from the currently largely narrowly individualist orientation of their peers to a collective response to their plight? As of now, over 340,000 Americans have signed their "strike commitment cards" pledging to participate when the time comes. Will that climb to millions and If so, by what path will it happen? How will young people who are angry and even outraged, scared and even desperate come together to propel a resistance that can defeat Trumpism and then continue on to win a fundamentally better society?
Hello, my name is Michael Albert and I am the host of the podcast that's titled Revolution Z. This is the 339th consecutive episode and our guest this time is Lucy Hicks. Lucy serves on the national outreach team with the General Strike US, cultivating and managing partnerships, creating resources for regional chapters and assisting with the General Strike's long-term outreach planning. Her academic background is in sociology, anthropology and women and gender studies. She has received awards for service to her community and for her academic achievements, and she's been organizing locally since 2021. So, lucy, welcome to Revolution Z.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:To start out, what is General Strike USA Project, and when and how did it get born?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the General Strike USA is a decentralized movement, so our goal is to reach 3.5% of the population in America who are committed to a general strike, and it started in 2022 after the overturning of Roe v Wade. That was kind of like a dog whistle for the original organizers, one of whom is named Eliza and she was an organizer with the Fight for 15 campaign and works with the SEIU, so that was really the moment that they knew that they needed to start organizing for a general strike.
Speaker 1:And strange. What's that number 3.5%?
Speaker 2:Is that?
Speaker 1:arbitrary, or is that something that bears some weight?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that is a number based off of Erica Chenoweth's research into nonviolent action. She works at the Harvard Kennedy School and we really look at it as more of a guiding principle rather than a rule. So she's come out with some subsequent research saying that this isn't a hard and fast rule. This is just what the data showed and so we fully know that. But it is a good guiding principle to know, kind of, where we need to be aiming for.
Speaker 1:But of course you wouldn't be upset to get four, five, 10 or 20.
Speaker 2:Exactly yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, now what does it look like when you guys I don't know talk to one another about something called a general strike? What is it that you mean? What do you have in mind?
Speaker 2:have enough working people in the United States to have a general strike and the goal isn't just really for the short term. We don't have short term goals necessarily. We have this long term goal of transforming the economic and political systems within America. So this is kind of it stems from people looking at our current political climate and saying our protests aren't working, writing letters to elected officials haven't been working. We've been trying all of these things and it's just it's not changing things, and so right now we have. So we have two phases, so we have phase one that we're in right now.
Speaker 2:So that's about zero to six million strike cards is typically what we base that off of, and we're focused mostly on political education, growing a good strong foundation, kind of getting more folks, especially right now, who are maybe waking up to some of the realities in this country that they didn't see before.
Speaker 2:Bringing them in to kind of do some more of that education and say, hey, this isn't just because of what's happening right now, this is kind of more long-term issues that we've seen for decades, and so bringing people into the fray in that way and starting regional chapters we have about 37 right now, I believe, regional chapters which are a big part of at least where we are, where we're starting to.
Speaker 2:You know, there's like a national movement, of course, but with it being decentralized. What's really important is that local, on the ground effort from regional chapters and the folks that they want to work with in their communities. So that I would say right now is what it looks like is how can we educate folks, how can we bring them in, and then how can we start building the infrastructure so that not just looking at the US, which is a really, really big thing to look at, but how can local communities start preparing their own areas to strike. What does that look like, specific to those communities, which is kind of what those regional chapters look at, because they know those communities better than anybody who's working nationally and looking really broadly.
Speaker 1:While you have long-term aims and I'm partial to long-term aims, always have been but we do live in the world today and I'm sure that virtually everybody who's in any of those chapters and yourself correct me if I'm wrong are aware that if the trajectory continues to grow worse and worse and if Trump entrenches full-on fascism, which is not make-believe, it is where things are moving. That is a sticky proposition for your long-term, not just your short-term, desires. So, on the way to this long-term general strike and to the more fundamental changes that one hopes to win, you also want to stop Trump and reverse Trump and build that momentum. So I'm wondering has well, actually, even before we get into that without offending you, you're obviously young.
Speaker 2:Look at me, yes.
Speaker 1:You're not even just young. Relative to me, you're young, and that's nice Wish I was. But the thing is, your generation isn't necessarily like you, or at least that's the way it appears. It appears that, for some set of reasons which we better figure out, a lot of people, too many people, in your generation. It isn't even just that they don't have the long-term perspective yet, that they're not talking about some alternative to capitalism or to patriarchy and so on, and they might even have that. That's the crazy thing. They might even have that perspective. But as far as doing something, as far as thinking in terms of collectively acting, that seems to be absent from so many people. So I want to ask you I'm sorry for going on a bit, but I want to ask you do you have a reaction to that?
Speaker 1:Do you feel like, come on, michael, that's not fair, we're on the move. Or do you feel like, well, yeah, I've seen it too, and here's how I try and explain it, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And here's how I try and explain it Go ahead, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I love this question Because I do think about it a lot. I think for me I had a scholarship in undergrad where I like the requirement for them to pay for my school was that I had to do community service, and that was great, of course, in the long term, like I would get upset when I was like, oh, I have to meet my hours, but it was really good because it taught me like something that I think maybe other folks in my generation didn't get to learn that like even the small one person going and doing their hours can make a larger term impact, especially if there are lots of folks doing that at the same time. So I think a lot of that was kind of in my formative years in undergrad. I got a lot of exposure to that and kind of skipped over the apathy part that I see a lot in my generation, see a lot in my generation. So, yes, I would say a lot of folks are maybe not where I am and I would say some folks are getting there, but so that's the first thing I always think of is that I've spoken with others, with students right now who are in undergrad, about this, and it's kind of the same, like I skipped over this apathy part that seems to be very common. I also think the COVID pandemic was very impactful for folks maybe not in like my direct age, but especially younger who throughout middle school or throughout high school were not actually in school. So it didn't impact me until my senior year of high school and I'd already had all the other experiences. So I think that that, in terms of thinking collectively especially like when folks are out of a place where you know they're online, they're not in person and that I think probably impacted things as well. And I also think that just because these things are true doesn't mean that there isn't the ability to mobilize those folks in my generation. I think that, especially when I graduated from undergrad and I can't say the same for everybody, but I know with other students I've spoken to, it's been true.
Speaker 2:You get told that you're growing up and you get told that you just need to get this bachelor's degree and then everything will fall into place from there. If you just go to college, things will be easier and you will be at least marginally successful and then you graduate and that's not necessarily true, and so then this kind of foundational thing you grew up hearing isn't true anymore, and then you have to kind of come to terms with that and what you do. When, then, you take a step back and look at everything else that's going on in the world and seeing it's really not your fault because you did do the right things, and then there's this confusion and anger and frustration, and I think that there are definitely folks who are younger who are working through that. When I look at, oh, will I be able to buy a house with my partner in the next five years? The answer is probably no, even though I'm graduated, I have a decent job, like I did the right things.
Speaker 2:Probably that's not going to happen. So even the very basics that we were told, like, oh, do this and you'll be able to get these, as basic as a house, you really can't get as easily anymore, and so I think there's a lot of thinking about that. And when you recognize that there is the potential to be radicalized for lack of a better word and say, ok, now I need to do something about it. But there are all these other factors, like, say, the pandemic, where it's like do they or we? Do we really know what to do? To work collectively to change things and I've seen lots of people in my generation do that, but that doesn't mean that the majority of them are working in that way.
Speaker 1:I think I understand what you're saying, but to me, it explains frustration, it explains depression, it explains anger, whichever happens to be the individual's response. But there's this other aspect to it, and maybe it's just because of well, where I was when I was your age, right, my generation back then, had a similar phenomenon, that is to say, as a collectivity, as a large group, we thought we were going to have a life, you know, we thought we were going to enter society and do creative things, and on and on and on. And we discovered, no, it's not the case, it's lied. The whole thing is a lie. Foreign policy was a lie, domestic policy was, you know, all of it was a lie, and I think your generation is seeing that too. Differences, and maybe the difference is that it hasn't been long enough yet, so it's not fair to bring it up, you know. But we went berserk, not all of us, you know, but more of us.
Speaker 1:And I have to admit honestly, I sort of have been sitting here wondering where is it? You know, when Columbia capitulated, where was the student body, where was even the faculty? Now, of course, some of them were, some of them did oppose it, but it wasn't enough. And you know, I wonder not what caused the mindset which you've clarified greatly, but what is the mindset? In other words, what do you find in the thinking and feelings of the person who really does sort of get it? Trump is disgusting. The country's in a horrible trajectory, blah, blah, blah, right Genocide, mind-boggling, but nonetheless is filling out their what do you call it? Their resume.
Speaker 2:In other words.
Speaker 1:Their response to thinking they can't get a job is to try harder in the path that they were already on. No outside the box. Well, wait a minute. Why can't we change things? So what's going on inside? I mean, it's not a fair question. I apologize. Where else am I going to get an answer?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's great. So I can really speak the most to it, I think from my own experience. Of course, that doesn't. You know, it's not.
Speaker 1:You don't have that mindset.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true, but I would say I.
Speaker 2:I did. Maybe I didn't have it as much as other folks did, but like in terms of I can think of, um, for example, like myself going to to graduate school and that being really deeply impacted by what's happening right now, in that I can't go because there's no funding, because there's no grants, because blah, blah, blah, and the wider picture of that all. And of course, to me that translates to okay, I need to do something, but to get myself out of I don't know. There was a lot of a narrative, I don't know. There was a lot of a narrative, at least in my family, about go and get more education than we did and like I'm a first generation college student and so that was huge, like go and get the education and that's the big focus. As long as you do this, you'll be better than us, and blah, blah, blah, and that's great.
Speaker 2:But also it's really hard to pull yourself away from a very like a path that you kind of had set for a very long time and thinking well, all these other folks are going to get their graduate degrees, am I behind? Am I not doing the thing? That's actually what I'm supposed to be doing, because I'm taking a backseat for that to focus on this. And so there's some of that, I think, at least for me, of being like. There's the I have my own thoughts about higher education and some criticisms of that of like you know the kind of the hierarchy that emerges within that and outside of it, of well, you have this degree, so you must be better at X, y, z. That I think also was very clear in my growing up. Was you know, if this person is more educated than you, then they're going to do better in there. And you know the statistically like when you look at research, folks who have higher education do better in making more money. But does that really translate to doing better? Looking more broadly, so some of it is that I think.
Speaker 2:But what the mindset is beyond that, I don't know if I could could say other than I know that there is a lot of apathy and there's a lot of like disconnect. I think um, a lot more individualism, at least I can see in my generation like not as many folks involved in clubs. We talked about that in a class that I took in undergrad sociology of community and folks just aren't getting involved in things outside of what they're doing like a job and they're not really getting involved in all of the at least in my generation all of the outside, maybe community just not getting involved in their outside community. So that could be part of it. Is that disconnect, not really knowing what to do if something happens and how to. But there are some folks I see who are doing it. So I think there's kind of a disconnect. Even though folks are so much more connected now than ever before with technology and everything, there seems to be an in-person disconnect.
Speaker 1:That's the strange thing. I mean at some level right now, like there'll be 200 or 300 demonstrations on June 14th. We never pulled that off 300 simultaneous demonstrations. I don't know that my generation pulled that off simultaneously. Now we had bigger. But there's a lot going on and yet there's something about I don't know how to even express it there's something about the difference. Maybe it's partly confidence, it's partly. Sanders did a commercial during his campaign. I can't reproduce it exactly. If we can get to the point where we each care as much about people across town as we care about our next door neighbor, as we care about our family, we win. And that's absent, right.
Speaker 1:It just doesn't seem to be there. It's more me first, you know, and I'm wondering if, when you encounter it, I'm sure you encounter it. When you do encounter it, I'm wondering what do you say to it? In other words, how do you try and address it? And I guess breakthrough is I don't know what other words to use. Do you run the other way? Okay, this is hopeless. I'll go find somebody who's you know ballpark where I am. Or do you give it a try?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I typically give it a try myself. I think it of course varies by person, but I grew up in the rural South, so I'm very used to just kind of, you know, aside from that, just having to have conversations with folks that maybe aren't in the same ballpark as me, Conversations with folks who have said, you know, they think Dr Fauci should be executed by public, like public execution by firing squad, and having to sit in those conversations and not completely freak out. And so I think for me it's a little bit easier, maybe because that's where I grew up and I always held these beliefs and I was able to navigate it and learn to come to some kind of common ground with folks who were ready. They're not always ready, so that's fine too, but a lot of the time I've noticed something about folks not even really wanting to talk about what's happening In my generation and in some a little bit older than me, but the conversation, when it comes up, is very brief and they're like, man, that's crazy. And then it kind of moves on and for me that's very difficult, um, because I'd like to sit there and have conversations about it, um, and try and figure out a way to bring folks in to even just have a discussion, because it also it seems like folks are like okay, well, if we just kind of continue going like normal, maybe things will be normal for us, and so those conversations just aren't even really happening either. Um, so that's, that's one thing I've really noticed. Um, if I were saying something to them, I mean, I think it would be hard.
Speaker 2:I think, like in terms of what do I say to you to get you to see that there's a bigger picture here and some of it is just situating I've done this previously, like with my own family, because they're all in the South situating the larger kind of social issues to what is right in front of them.
Speaker 2:So like they didn't want me to go to a gas station that was in a bad part of town because I could get injured or hurt or whatever.
Speaker 2:I was like well, is it really a bad part of town, or is it that this area is over policed?
Speaker 2:And so then the data is inflated and we think that it's a worse part of town than it is, and kind of talking about what I've learned, but making it so that it is understandable in their own lives and also not one thing that I always have an issue with is jumping straight to talking about theory or jumping straight into talking in an academic sense, rather than bringing it down to down to earth of if you know the theory, if you know the stuff inside and out, then you should be able to communicate it to somebody who's never heard it before.
Speaker 2:So I think that's one thing that I really try to do is like if somebody does want to have a conversation and we can say something to get them to change and maybe get mobilized, not talking about it in this big, you know, theoretical or huge comprehensive sense, but bringing it down to a normal, everyday conversation that addresses the things we need it to address, but isn't something where they wouldn't really understand what I'm saying or really wouldn't understand the words, and I wouldn't hear that from them. We're just having a more normal conversation about it.
Speaker 1:I don't know if that helps at all, but that's kind of where my mind goes Sure, although I got to admit I disagree with one thing in what you said it's not bringing it down to earth, it's bringing it up to earth. The academic stuff is. It's not that it's more astute, it's not that it's more aware, it's not that it's more conscious, much less more ethical. It's more obscure. Yes, and you're not bringing it down, you're bringing it to English. Is what you're doing? You're bringing it to comprehensible language.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And it's not really rocket science, and so it's made up to be rocket science. It's made up be obscure because that's good for the egos of the intellectuals who can talk that way and nobody else can you know.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:It's a particular bone that I have to pick. I suppose that's what I have to. Yeah, back in the day again, we're both talking from our experience. Mine, regrettably, is long ago Handing out leaflets. In what city are you in?
Speaker 2:I'm in Missoula, Missoula Montana.
Speaker 1:Okay. So handing out leaflets in Cambridge, you'd have an anti-war leaflet and you'd be trying to hand it to somebody in the street and they wouldn't want to take it. And you could walk along with them trying to give them this leaflet and they would be exerting themselves to avoid receiving it Right. In other words, they'd be actively. In other words, it was really an intent thing. I don't want that, don't give me that, get away from me with that, you know, et cetera. I don't want that, don't give me that, get away from me with that, you know, et cetera. So that sounded like what you were describing when you said people didn't want to have the conversations In those days.
Speaker 1:It seemed like, you know, you can see why that would be From their point of view. It's a slippery slope. If I take the damn thing, I read it. If I read it, I'm stuck. Because now I know, you know, I have a feeling that's probably true of students now also. They know, uh-oh, if I get into this I'm doomed In quotation marks you know I'm going to have to act, and so they avoid it. So do you think it may be the case that the way to reach such people and it's perfectly understandable. It's not as if it's a sin against humanity. It's, you know, is by example, in other words, that what will reach them is larger and larger visibility for the resistance, and that's the lesson that well, this can be done, you can do this, you can be part of this.
Speaker 1:Do you think that might be more important than even a highly understandable, well-spoken discussion of what's wrong?
Speaker 2:discussion of what's wrong. Yeah, I think that. Yes, I think that that would be very helpful. I think, of course, yeah, discussion is always helpful as well, but I would like to see it get to a point like demonstrations, protests, whatever active resistance is happening to, where people can't pretend like nothing is going on and like everything is normal, and I think that definitely will get people kicked into gear. I also think for students who are in that, or people just in my age group or maybe in that apathetic mindset, seeing that this can be organized and this can be done will be very impactful for them, definitely.
Speaker 2:I also think I've heard some students discuss like well, we did, we've been doing demonstrations for, like Black Lives Matter and for Palestine, lives Matter and for for Palestine, and yeah, and we get, you know, tear gassed or we build bar police, kind of this idea of them working within the system, within a state that is actively working to oppress us, within the system, within a state that is actively working to oppress us.
Speaker 2:Does that mean that? Is it actually going to work if we just show up and just march? Is that just? Is that what's going to be what solves this active politically or, you know, in activism, and so that's something that I think will be interesting to see develop, because you also have this idea from folks of martial law, like we have to avoid martial law, trump calling martial law, whatever, so we can't do these things. But a lot of these protesters who were involved in these other demonstrations prior were I mean, they essentially had the police, you know, sicked on them and that was their experience then. So there's some interesting different things popping up of criticisms and how are these folks going to work together and hopefully it all comes together at some point, but some of that's very interesting as well.
Speaker 1:Take the national strike idea. It's the heart of your activity, right? Yeah, Okay, so you could imagine one approach to that being conversations, conversations, conversations, trying to get across, A that there's something worth winning and, B that a national strike could do it. But what about, instead, or in addition? I mean that obviously has to happen, the conversations, right, but what about, along with that stages, let's call it some kind of visible manifestation that's leading in the direction of people withholding their labor, people withholding their obedience, and so on, but at a scale that can be done in the present, and then another round later of more and more. Is anything like that in the minds of the national strike folks? Or is it just okay? Let's just keep saying we got to get to 4%, whatever it is, and then we can see what's going on in people's heads.
Speaker 2:Yes, those conversations have definitely been ongoing and it's come up and we want to do it. One thing that, at least that I've seen and been a big part of the conversations about, is we see folks who are kind of calling to their own actions. So there are groups who are beyond the protests, like we have 50-51 or Indivisible. There are other smaller groups or kind of people who've come together who say you know, let's do a general strike from June 6th through 10th is one that's come up, and so they are planning that.
Speaker 1:This June 6th through 10th.
Speaker 2:Yes, and so we've seen that. And when we look at that, our idea of a shorter term strike, like if we were going to, we would start probably like with one day, because people are doing protests on one day but there may be three hours long, two hours, whatever. How can we push them a little bit further to stay out for the whole day? And we would plan like we'd have regional chapters and whoever else wants to to plan maybe some teach-ins or a protest on that day or something to show the participation and the visibility of what's happening, rather than just staying home. And so when those calls come up and we're in the middle of like trying to look forward more strategically of when is the right day to do this, when, what gives us enough time to plan so that we can do all of this, but it's still soon enough that people are like, yes, let's do it. And they're not freaking out about, oh, we're going to fall into fascism and kind of already are. But you know, like trying to balance that, those different calls and it's hard to know whether to endorse them or to say need to start smaller, like we want to come and work, we can work together because we're not just an organization, like we're a coalition of different groups working together for the same goal. So come and let's have these conversations and then we can actually plan this so that something will happen, because we're worried about lots and lots of different calls where nothing happens and then people lose hope about this as a viable plan. And then we've had some different calls for things outside of, like our immediate coalition, which is fine, but like the people sick day is something we've heard about for some time in June, but we're not really sure when the day is. And so trying to get in contact with those organizers and trying to just like coordinate, that's it. Like we want to support what they're doing, especially if it's like, okay, we can just join in and help you and just support your effort so that we can maybe make it more realistic or at least provide the manpower to make this happen.
Speaker 2:But getting everybody on the same page for a national day of even just a day of action like that has been a challenge, because there are people are getting a little bit more panicky right now and anxious about what's happening, and so lots of different calls are coming up and of course they get a lot of traction on social media, lot of traction on social media, but, like we've seen in the past with general strikes, calls for that on social media, that doesn't always mean that the organizing is there in the background and that it will come to fruition. So, trying to figure out how we can bring people all together, like we were working with 5051, hey, can we change? Like for the next action that isn't yet planned, could we do something like this and trying to see what their plans are, because it seems like everybody has these trajectories and these plans that they are following. But how do we bring all of those together so that it works at a national scale and it's not just a call for something but the plans are there, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yes, of course it makes sense, but there's an element of it that I do wonder about, which is who's the person who is most effective at organizing the resistance right now? Trump.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Trump is the person who is actually doing the most. Of course, it's not his intention.
Speaker 2:And he's also organizing fascism, right.
Speaker 1:But he is doing what, in a sense, organizers usually have to do convincing people that something horrible is happening right. You don't really have to do that now. I mean all those students who are apathetic, they all know something horrible is happening, right. You don't really have to do that now. I mean all those students who are apathetic, they all know something horrible is happening right and they even know what it is right. So that part of organizing isn't really that critical. It's like you know, when Black Lives Matter started, the cops were doing the organizing in some sense, but the coordination, the having people do things simultaneously and mutually supportively, that's what the organizing was for, which is what you just said. I think. So getting all these various things that have popped into existence like 50, 51 and indivisible and on and on um to do something together, so that I mean the main thing that that does is it tells everybody okay, this is big right.
Speaker 1:So this is the one to pay attention to. This is the thing to give a chance to. That might be all that's needed. I mean, I have this feeling like the kindling is already in the fireplace. It needs a spark, and that's about it, and and and. Then it needs to have not 20 little fires all over the place, but but together.
Speaker 2:Um.
Speaker 1:I don't know. That that's what seems to me to be the case, at a distance obviously from the young folks that that are critical to it, and they still are critical to it. I find myself saying that I don't know. I find my friends saying that. I find, you know, a lot of people are saying that we look at what's happening and it's like what the fuck? It's not within our experience, and I'm sure that's vastly more true, even in some sense, for somebody young who's in college or getting out of college and running into this wall of noise which doesn't even seem sane.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:No, and you don't have the culture that it would be nice to have Music make a difference to you. I mean, I know that's a stupid question. So are there people you listen to, who you care about, and who others listen to and who care about and who you feel like are part of this process?
Speaker 2:For me, there have been two artists there's I think it's Jesse Wells and Jordan Smart and they like, there's a song like who would jesus bomb and there's one about um, like universal health or um. Which one was it? The?
Speaker 1:I can't remember but like about the health care system you know yeah and so those yeah, I know jesse's stuff, yeah, um you, you just don't have the universe to appeal. You don't have the hippie universe to appeal to, yeah, and you don't have the universe to appeal. You don't have the hippie universe to appeal to, yeah, and you don't have, you know, the Jefferson Airplane and the Doors and Dylan, all the rest of it, totally shaking up society to help you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's hard what you're trying to do, but on the upside you're trying to reach the whole population and we were trying to reach people who we were already talking to.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's much better in the long term if you succeed. There is a big question about what happens if we don't succeed. If we don't succeed, and so much of this organizing for me is kind of keeping track of what's happening in the news around me, what I hear from other people, what I read on maybe social media, just in the comment section of things, like trying to piece together where people are at. Like, I've seen a shift from, I would say, maybe, february of this year to now in what unions are willing to do, you know like, rather than union members have always been very on board with like, hey, maybe let's plan for a general strike, but some other folks in like union leadership maybe not so much.
Speaker 2:And I've even seen that shift and it's ever so slightly things are changing where you're starting to see more and more folks come out and say, hey, this is probably the only thing we have left to do, um, and so there is a question of like, what if we fail? Like, what do we do after that? But it also seems like for a lot of folks this is becoming the like. This is the lap, this is this, is it like? What do we even do after this? So we have to make this succeed, which I think will be a helpful mindset of like it'll be really hard and there will be failures, but ultimately, hopefully, if everybody's on the same page with that and starting to come to terms with we may have to get there, that will help a lot with actually getting us there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think you're right about the mindset. The mindset has to go from seeing the big obstacles and, you know, hunkering down to okay, there are obstacles, we simply have to overcome them.
Speaker 1:Okay, there are obstacles, we simply have to overcome them. That's the thing that is hard to induce and to get to be widespread, but it's absolutely essential. Is fear playing a factor? How does it play a factor, do you think? Is it fear for my future? Is it ever fear for Palestine's future? In other words, fear of what and why, and you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I don't know for me. I guess I'm maybe still in the mindset of we have to do this, we can't fail. So I don't always. Maybe the fear is definitely. I would say maybe the fear is there, but I don't always take the time to recognize it. And so, like my fear isn't for me, my fear is for other folks in my life who I know are of groups that will be targeted, not just from, like, a recession, like everyone's going to be targeted by that, but by the administration. And so, like my trans friends or my folk or my friends who have, maybe disabilities, where their medication is going to be like and it's, you know, life safe, saving medication, so they have to have it, and so it's fear for those folks, I would say that impacts me the most. So, yeah, for every for other people's, because I don't see myself as being in a group of people that would be targeted. Yeah, of course, for my organizing, but like that is a choice I made. It wasn't like I showed up and this is who I am and now they're targeting me. So that fear I don't necessarily feel, but I know other people are feeling it and I think, as the mindset changes.
Speaker 2:I would definitely say, especially with other smaller calls to action, where we're like, yes, let's do this, but we maybe need some more time to actually figure out what this looks like, but we can do. It stems from people's fear of not being able to sit still or do anything. Fear of not being able to sit still or do anything. Yes for Palestine Also, for I would say a big thing right now is for undocumented folks or those with temporary protected status or anybody in that group who are being kidnapped by ICE and deported.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of fear around that about like, when will this come to my community? What do I do if this comes to my community and how do I help the folks who are in El Salvador? And I don't really understand how we're ever going to get them back, especially with Trump in power. So there's a lot of fear with that that. I think the biggest driver to the general strike that I've seen lately is what's happening, like we've we had like four regional chapters in December of 2024. And now we have like 30 something, and so there's a huge driver of fear about what is going on. Um, that just kind of keeps mounting. More and more fear and more and more people show up um to say like okay, this looks like a viable option for something we can do.
Speaker 1:So I would say the other, the flip side of that is do you think that the fear also not only prods people into acting? But, prevents people from acting.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I can talk about that part for sure. So the biggest challenge, that which we've worked on I've been a big part of those conversations as well but the biggest challenge of organizing a general strike, at least in the way that we're doing it, there are different ways. You can choose a date, like the 2028 date, and just work towards that and try and mobilize people. In that way, you can get commitments, like we're doing. You can have some different red lines in the sand like, okay, if this happens, we're going to strike, but I mean, either way, you have to be able to keep track of the numbers. You have to be able to get in contact with people.
Speaker 2:So we've had a lot of kind of criticism, which is totally fine. It's driven us to get better, because we started organizing in 2022. So we made the strike card and now people are like, oh, the strike card is really dangerous because it can be a list of people that the administration can go after and so saying, okay, we have been organizing this way and this is what makes sense to us, but how can we build it maybe in a better way, with pseudonyms or sharing that people can use VPNs or you know, like trying to navigate some of that and trying to decentralize the information, but there is a huge fear, I would say, of inaction for a general strike of people saying why don't we just set a date, which is a possibility but changes the course of how we're organizing? So we would, of course, have to have a conversation about that, or like and the date is usually very soon so, like, have a strike within, you know, a month 20 minutes, yeah, like it's not possible.
Speaker 2:And so there's some fear there where it's like we don't want to put our names on anything, even if we're like, okay, use a pseudonym and the phone number is optional and just give us an email so that we can make sure you're updated. There's still this fear of like I'm not going to put my name on anything. And for me, of course, I've been involved in organizing for a little bit, so I know I'm not too afraid of being on a list whatever. Like I used my pseudonym and blah, blah, blah, like it's fine, I'm fine with it, other folks aren't. So how do we not only structure things so that they're more comfortable but also get folks over that fear of you know if they know other information, like if you're on social media, they know your email, you know.
Speaker 2:Like that's not going to be. Like there's safety in numbers. So if we get to a big enough group of people who's doing this, like they're going to have to go through a lot it's going to be decentralized to regional chapters and trying to talk people through the safety measures that we can take, while still making this successful. Still making this successful so it's because then, of course, you have 50-51 showing up and being able to mobilize people for like and close to that 3.5% number and we're like yes, that's excellent, but again, that was just for two to three hours one day. That does not mean that folks are ready to go on strike for, you know, for five days for a week. That doesn't mean that they're ready to go on strike for as long as it takes, because we don't have the infrastructure, at least right now in this country, to do that.
Speaker 1:So what is your pledge? Right, there's some kind of a pledge. How many people do you have having signed that?
Speaker 2:I believe it's 340 000 right now okay, and?
Speaker 1:and what does? What does it say? What are these people pledging to?
Speaker 2:so they're pledging to um to go on strike when they when the time comes. They're pledging to go on strike that they will participate and what does that mean for them?
Speaker 2:So that means that you know they will not show up for work and they will be on strike for as long as it takes. But there is the big thing of getting involved prior to that, which is what we encourage, but not everybody's going to want to do that of being in the regional chapter and kind of doing the mapping of your community. What do you need to be able to weather a strike? How can you do that? How can you build that out? So, some of those, the supportive measures, what we want and what's the goal is that somebody will sign, yes, the strike card and then they will come and help us organize and help us look at their community where they're living and see what is needed for a strike. And the other thing is people don't have to sign the strike card to help us organize.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, has there been discussions with A union people B unions and, if so, what have those looked like?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So there have been lots of discussions with union people. We have a good bit of folks in our regional chapters and in some national conversations. So with outreach, with union outreach, there are a good bit of folks who are union members and they have been pretty involved, I would say definitely since the election, even prior. But we only have one sublocal union of the SEIU who has signed on as a partner as endorsing a general strike like this.
Speaker 2:Any other conversations we've had with unions have been a lot more complex. Unions have been a lot more like, just a lot more complex. They are ready to do something, but it's probably going to be a lawsuit or going through the courts or holding a rally and keeping us on the back burner until it looks like this is their last option, if that makes sense. That's essentially what we've heard from when we're looking at unions and hey, union, do you want to help us organize a general strike? They're like we're not there yet. We have other avenues we need to exhaust and we will keep in touch and that's pretty much that conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, all right. Well, we're getting up there in time now. I'm wondering if there are things that you'd like to say to the audience that I haven't elicited with questions. Is there something you want to touch on or elaborate, or whatever?
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's see, I think the biggest points that I've been trying to drive home whether that's through our communications like social media or emails or anything like that is there are a lot of folks who are asking us to move faster. Right, I totally get it that that would be ideal, but I always like to say that all of us are volunteers, so I work from home today, so I'm able to do this on some off time, but everybody else typically has their job and they're choosing to also organize with the general strike. So, for us to be able to move faster and to get to places quicker where we can actually take some of this action, it requires folks who maybe don't feel like they are organizers you know, like they're the perfect definition of organizer but they have some skills and some resources and they want to contribute and they're ready to contribute because, like our outreach team, we have meetings pretty much every week. They range from like 10 people to 20 people for national outreach only, and that's great, but that's still only a max 20 people who are, you know, getting all this information and taking that out to other places, and so we always need more folks who are just like yeah, I'll hand out flyers at this protest, or like there has to be some sort of ownership, I think, of this movement, of a general strike, for us to succeed in the ways that people are asking us to, because we only have so much capacity and I spend a great deal more time than I probably should on this organizing, and so it would be. I mean, I'll probably continue doing that either way, but there are also there's a lot of room for, hey, I would love to contribute this and that's it, and you just want to do this one thing. That's great. That's one thing that somebody else can take off of their plate and can focus on something else.
Speaker 2:But we need a sense of ownership within the movement, I think, from other folks who are coming in, to come in and say, okay, this is like I have to take the initiative and I have to start doing this, organizing and pushing myself out of my comfort zone. Um, so that's been something I've been. I've been reflecting on and trying to really push as we, as we discuss stuff is this isn't just going to happen because a couple folks at a meeting said it was going to happen. It's going to happen because we all are like this really needs to fucking happen, and then we, we work towards it together. It's not because I'm sitting here on this podcast and somebody listened to it and then they're like, oh, that's a cool idea, like no, that needs to translate into action, or this isn't going to work in the way that people want it to yeah, um, I think it's not just true for the national strike, it's true for virtually all the progressive groups that are understaffed, have resources and energy but could do with more.
Speaker 1:And so you know about this thing called All of Us Directory, which we're trying to produce in order for people to find you, in order for people who want to do something and who aren't sure exactly what, but have various interests and skills, to enter those interests and skills and find groups that they can relate to, and hopefully that will help. But I guess we'll see. I must admit I personally have this feeling that June 14th is really important, that this idiot has created a day for himself to scare the shit out of everybody and to, if not, put the final nail in his agenda to move it along with a big jump on June 14th and at the same time, he's given us a day to make visible that.
Speaker 1:Wait a minute, it isn't all Trump. There's this resistance and it's big and it's growing and then, of course, hopefully that will happen on that day, and I believe it will. I think there'll be hundreds of demonstrations and then the follow-up is critical, the fact that it continues to grow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those are the conversations we're having right now are what is the follow-up? How can we push people and get them comfortable, maybe with some more sustained? I mean, we've had pretty sustained actions once a month. That's impressive, but how can we continue moving it along?
Speaker 1:Right, right, yeah, all right. Well, I want to thank you and wish the organization, the effort, the project I'm not sure exactly what to call it the best of luck and I hope all of us directory helps you out to get more people working on it. That you're in Missoula, montana, that's good. I'm going to use that as anecdotal evidence that the entire country is about to transform itself.
Speaker 2:There you go. Yeah, to transform itself there you go.
Speaker 1:yeah, that is probably not the place in the United States that most people would anticipate someone like yourself doing the work like you're doing. What do they call it? The big country, big sky?
Speaker 2:Big sky country All right?
Speaker 1:well, thanks very much, and this is Mike Albert signing off until next time for Revolution Z.